ProNurse

Sometimes I feel peoples level and role within the NHS could be more defined or is this stupid? 

Have a good day!

Garrod

I agree with Stuart I'm afraid.. A lot of jobs are just too complex.

Also what's the point.. I never tell people what pay  band I'm on (it's not a secret but it's just not an issue) and I don't wear a uniform usually so you can't tell. I'm accepted for who I am and what I do- and people deal with me on that level, if I had to rely on a rank in order to gain people's respect then I'd be quite disappointed with myself.

I always feel like I am in the army anyway ! I find Nurses are very protective of their " rank " . I go out in the community and there is a section where you have to sign your name and put your banding .WHY ???????? Surely my title will suffice ? Thankfully I am a specialist nurse only working with my same " banding " so I no longer have to be bothered with it .But I must confess I found it very depressing when I was in the hospital as people seem to define themselves by it ! I am 41 I have been doing the job a tad longer ! Doesn't make me better than anyone else , just longer in the tooth lol !

On the subject of banding though.Having been used to grading , I do find it slightly odd to lump everyone across all disciplines into the same paybands ! I used to work in a Cardiac cath lab and therefore a huge MDT all at the same time and the discrepency across the banding between them was shocking ! And yet it was only the nurses that protected their " rank " so fiercely !

So after all my waffling , I think what I am trying to say is , I already think we are ranked like the military but it is defined by us not officially !

E grades were lower band F grades far as my Trust was concerned. They would often be left in charge of wards more and more as time went by till the point you were peer presured by the regularity. F grades were used for the paper work, and if they had time, the patient care. G grade, you'd faint if they ever left the office it was that rare.  But then my Trust is one of the low ranked Trusts now. It used to quite good before I left and all the patients said so.

Interesting topic Garrod I was at a recent RCN meeting and they are trying to get rid of all referernce to grades/banding  instead having just nurses and ward managers. in Wales we have just had a uniform change to reflect this. The RCN are saying that if we do not get off the grading thing the whole profession of nursing is as stake and at the end of the day we are all either nurses or managers?

Other professionals do not seem to be so hung up on this issue?

I agree nurses need to get management experience but I would expect them to have got that before they become managers this is why many nurses cannot manage they have either been not allowed to by dictatorial managers or are pushed into the role without any experience. This is where the banding/grading system protected us a bit  I must admit enjoying being a D grade for 2 years and saying no  many things people asked me to do

we choose and we ask on our own terms we should never take on something we do not feel competent to do  but a little practice is always needed before you become skilled at anything

ok this new system sounds interesting. On the old grade system I could argue I am a nurse just an A grade nurse .. but it still says nurse :P the terms auxillary, HCA, csw, AP seem somewhat threatening to some nurses or those roles could be completly dismissed as non skilled labourers who just clean patients and beds.

How is this new system going to work for non registered / unqualified nursing staff?

And will it be confusing for patients? Atleast at the moment they know by uniform who they need to ask for meds and who is more likely to take them to the toilet lol It shouldn't be true but it mostly is.

I'm all up for system that allows us all to work as one and stops all petty squabbles.. but I'm sure not all will like it.

Garrod says ...

StuartSorensen says ...

For example - a psychiatrist would probably rank above a nurse. This would prevent nurses like me who specialise in recovery from doing the job because doctors are trained to see mental disorders like schizophrenia in a medicalised way that tends to discount the possibility of recovery. They have a very narrow perspective (basically they're chemists) and are generally at a loss to understand what mental health nursing is about. I'm sure there's an equivalent argument in general medicine but I'm not the person to make it.

 

Is that not where the NHS KSF would come in or have I got that completely wrong?

I understand the NHS does have a ranking system and that different professions may wear 'colours' within the work places for example HCA might wear blue and nurses white but does that not change from trust to trust? Or is this rolled out everywhere?

I find it all pretty confusing, although I do think the NHS KSF outline is fantastic compared to any other organisation

A military style ranking system means (as I understand it) that a captain in the Royal engineers would always outrank a leutenant in the rifles - even if the issue was to do with skirmish warfare and not bridge building. The ranking system doesn't take account of skill diversity.

The law for care provision says that the decision-maker is the person delivering the care or treatment. I like that. I think the system is fine the way it is. I'm a qualified nurse and I know my job. I don't need someone who is trained in a different discipline to wade in and tell me how to do it.

Cheers,

Stuart

Working in an MDHU hospital I always find it odd to see that, no disrespect intended, an HCA could outrank an RN. For example military nurses start off as corporal/leading rate, and while RN's can go for a commission, a Staff Sergeant HCA could still outrank an RN. Slightly garbled but you get the gist of it I hope.

As Stuart says, I feel the huge amount of job role diversity in the NHS would put paid to a ranking system very swiftly. I am also very against to staff being referred to by their band instead of their job title. Personally I feel it diminishes the value of the persons role and merely emphasises that they may be getting paid more or less than the other.

Boy there are some stinky ideas about nursing, but a military ranking system is one of the stinkiest I've come across.

No. Never, Please god, no.  

We've already seen on here, mostly in the anonymous section of course, that there's a pretty condescending attitude towards those of "lower" rank such as HCAs shown by some (many?).  Clearly some of us are a little too hung up on their position in the perceived pecking order, and one sure way to pander to such people is to introduce a more obvious ranking system.   

Presumably higher level nurses would have visible markings (stripes, chevrons, funny hats, polka dotted blouses etc) to differentiate them from mere nurses, and mere nurses have their own set of markings to make sure no-one mistakes us for a lowly HCA or (gasp) domestic: "How the hell do I know where the broom is you idiot, I've got a bloody degree and two stripes on my arm!!"     

As for patients, well if I'm in the unfortunate position of being one of them, I'm not speaking to anyone with less than three stripes, and if it's anything important, then I want to see a 5 striper.

The thing is, those in the military rarely come across Joe Public, and if they do it's often to hit them with sticks so a good bedside manner isn't that important.  We do, all the time, and patients have rights and they will exercise those rights by demanding, quite naturally, to speak to those of higher rank - how often have you heard a patient tell you she doesn't want to see a nurse, she wants a doctor.  Even as a nurse I'd rather see a doctor than a nurse, and so it's quite natural that if you just have to see a nurse, you'd want to see a higher ranking one.  

Nope, leave things as they are because once you start down the line of military style rankings, it's only a heartbeat away from making someone "drop and give me twenty" for not putting enough sugar in my tea.