ProNurse

Looks like the people were right when they said that the AP's would be taking over and the qualified nurses would suffer!

an AP can't take over from a nurse.. they have certain technical skills but they still do not fullfill the requirement of a registered band 5.

I think it would be useful to have an AP around to do some work which can free your time to be more patient centred.. or not. It will probably be more paper work!! I'm staying open minded for now.

If the facts are correct, this would completely undermine the whole point of registration.

Why are Hcas and Ap not accountable for their actions?

Qualifications such as Nvqs and Foundation Degrees must hold in some stead?

If this is already happening in hospitals then surely it working out to be a good thing?

hi , i am na on the ward s, and totally agree  that although we are understaffed and overworked, getting rid of registered nurses could be dangerous with regards to patient care ,its ok if you have have a good team under you , but we have workers , shirkers, decicated and its only a  job nas . now me i notice everything and report it , to the point where i can actually get on a nurses nerves until she does what i ask lol now if there  were less nurses, i wouldnt be able to do that cos they really wouldnt have the time, , but i  think some nurses should be more hands on in some cases and not sit there and let the nas run round ragged. i for one will offer any help  with regards to basic dressing s and anything else that i can do to help the nurse that has worked alongside me , i know this forum is for nurses, but its nice to get na pont of veiw over sometimes :) xxx oh yes by the way we are accountable for any thing that we do whist in work i know that because i went to an na conference

god why do RNs hate APs and HCAs so much?????????????/

just think for one minute if you didn`t have then working with you, some of you would have to get off your bums and do some bread and butter nursing, like washing the patient, feeding them, toileting them and getting to know them god forbid !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous says ...

I think the reason RNs dislike the ideas of APs is because they are pushing them more towards the paperwork role, and also increasing their numbers means that RNs will have more professional accountability for more people.

I am sorry but i am not willing to put my registration on the line because there is someone working under me who is not accountable to any professional organisation.

An RN makes a mistake... is taken to the NMC is struck off and therefore cannot work again. A band 4 /AP/HCA makes a mistake, they are reported to their ward manager and dismissed, are free to apply for other jobs working within the same role again.

So tell me, if you had put 3 years into a hard slog for a degree to gain a professional degree and register with a professional organisation would you wnat people coming along to do technical skills, pushing you towards paperwork? I understand that you ahve to study to become an AP but you do not have to study as hard as RNs who have to do a degree and write 10000 words in order to pass it.

I am not saying the APs don't help and aren't worth it but please remember that RNs put extra work in to get to where they are and ultimately have professional accountability whereas RNs do not.

The course that APs do at Uni is not a glorified NVQ, it is a credited FDsc.

APs doing their FDsc at uni do have to do written essays which have to be referenced like all uni students, infact when I did my AP course at uni I had to do a specailist unit and that was a 3500 word essay , plus others units which we also had to write essays that totaled up to over 5000 words, do a pressentation, and sit an A&P exsam. The FDsc  AP cousre is a credited uni course with CAT pionts of 220. Also during my two years attending we was  told that we would be put on to the NMC reg at some point, but the RCN and NMC can`t seam to get that sorted out  or agree to where APs will be placed on the NMC reg,

AP do not want to take over from from RNs we want to help them to deliver quality care to all patients

In community where I work, the HCAs are doing more and more which is to the advantage of the caseload holder and RGNs as our work is becoming more technical in some ways due to the type of discharges from hospitals. I do not know what I would do without them. There is talk of them going to uni to do modules which would make them band 4s, but only if they are prepared to do the study. Then, they will effectively be doing more hands on with patients like catheterisation, which is currently debatable in my area. They are invaluable to nurses in the community, do not overstep the line and I have no concerns of them taking over the RGN role as they will not have the leadership/management skills to do what RGNs are doing.

To the last post, go ahead and do your training. You will graduate with a different set of skills from the HCAs and you then have the choice to branch off and expertise in many different areas of nursing. Good luck

I am a student nurse and in a number of placements I have noticed that a many of the HCAs act as though they are running the ward.   I have heard them critise nurses and stating what should and should  not be done,. Indeed one HCA had the nerve to moan that a nurse was doing the medicine round before all the washes had been done even though there were 2 of us to finish the washes.  I pointed out that it was important that a patient receives their medication on time.  The fact that a patient may suffer by not receiving their medicine whereas if they were washed 30 minutes late , there would be no harm done -  all seemed to be lost on one HCA.

Anonymous says ...

I am a Specialist  Public Health Practitioner, my sister is an Assistant Nurse Practitioner, qualifying a couple of years ago and has a breadth of skills and knowledge. She is currently working in a busy London Hospital in a unit that treats very ill patients before transfer to Intensive care etc. The RGNs on her ward are not threatened by her presence and she readily accepts that she is not and never will be a replacement for RGNs. She is exactly as her title says ....an  ASSISTANT Nurse Practitioner. When I did my RGN training we had Enrolled Nurses they also played a valuable role and everyone accepted them ....... the ANP course brings HCAs to the equivilant level. RGN's should not be worried as wards cannot be staffed purely by ANPs....... do get a grip RGNs ( and that advice comes from one of your own).

             I would just like to say that I totally agree, I am an AP and no way would I step above my station, I still know my place! I f  I   wanted to be in charge of the unit then I would have done my nurse training. The whole idea of an AP was to help  rgns, I wanted to learn the reasons why we did what we do and why, and to be able to ease the work load from my peers!  as you said we have extra knowledge and skills, no way would HCA's / AP's be able to run the unit I work in (MIU) and I wouldnt want too! I think many of you are worrying  about nothing, we are only here to bridge the gap! hope this helps.                  

As an assistant practitioner of 2 years, it seems that sone RNs are making a mountain out of a mole hill, we will never take the place of RNs, we are there to fill the bridge between RNs and HCAs. We do a two year foundation degree at uni, and in the 1st year we have to learn A&P in 3 months (which std/nurses study over their 3yrs) and sit a exsam.

I wish that the RCN and NMC would pull their fingers out and get us onto the reg` as it may stop all this back stabbing. Reading comments like what as been said about APs and HCAsjust shows one how bitchy the nursing profession can be.

I can remember the days of enrolled nurses and they where put down just as much, so please get a grip RNs, APs will NEVER take the place of RNs, they are being introduced to help RNs and to help to give quality care to patients.

Similar fears were voiced in the early 90's when NVQ's were to be introduced. Nothing drastic happened then and it may be too soon to assume the worse now. A band 4  will be expected to gain an indepth higher level of qualification than is seen at the moment in NVQ's and will probably resemble the SEN's. Level 4 NVQ is management level but does not replace nurse training and the wards will still require senior nurses.

Considering the government think nurses can, in a limited capacity, take over the jobs of doctors while having nowhere near the level of training, and this is generally considered a good thing amongst nurses - though I personally remain sceptical -  I see it as more than a little hypocritical of nurses to throw up their hands in anguish at the idea of HCAs taking over some of our roles.

   Of course, the whole thing is a money saving operation, and the government and Trusts don't really care that much if mistakes are made by underqualified staff if it means they can balance the books, be they nurse or HCA, but I would say I know HCAs who could run rings round many nurses when it came to knowledge and nursing skills.

They will never get rid of qualified nurses.

Anonymous says ...

god why do RNs hate APs and HCAs so much?????????????/

just think for one minute if you didn`t have then working with you, some of you would have to get off your bums and do some bread and butter nursing, like washing the patient, feeding them, toileting them and getting to know them god forbid !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

OK, so I do some more of the 'bread & butter' nursing, as you put it. Now, who will deal with the doctor's rounds, admission and discharge paperwork, cannulate & take blood, give IV drugs and controlled drugs? Need I go on? I work 12 hour shifts and the only time I spend 'on my bum' is during the two ten-minute breaks I get - if I'm lucky. I'd love to sit and chat to patients to 'get to know them' more, but on my planet, nursing staff of ALL grades are never sat around doing nothing. Most of us are physically and mentally drained at the end of our shift and we NEVER get away on time. Registered Nurses have immense legal accountability and mistakes can be catastrophic, possibly resulting in loss of a patient's life and even a prison sentence. An HCA screws up, they can leave, or be dismissed and walk into another job.

It doesn't take three years to train us just to wash, feed & toilet patients. Any idiot could be taught those skills in a month of evening classes. That doesn't mean we are unable or unwilling to carry out basic nursing care, simply that we have a lot more responsibility than worrying about whether someone's had a proper wash that day...